I'm getting my hackles up about this, and I shouldn't be

"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove) 01/30/2019 at 17:08 • Filed to: Useless internet blathering

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I’ m reading a post over on The Takeout, and a commenter says this:

Semi-related rant: Do we really need to add Dr. before the name of someone who has a doctorate in something other than medicine? It’s annoying enough that medical doctors believe they are so important that they need to be referred to as Dr. Smarty Pants, but let’s not extend it to people with doctorates in things like education administration. Nothing wrong with those degrees, but let’s just take a breather on this Dr. business.

Now, this bothers me. I know I shouldn’t do this, but I respond:

I don’t find it offensive if people don’t call me “doctor”, but I do find it offensive if people tell me that I shouldn’t be.

Now, this person comes back thusly:

Well first off, if you don’t care if people don’t call you “doctor,” then you aren’t the problem. But, why is it offensive that you might not get to put “Dr.” in front of your name if you aren’t a medical doctor? Put it on your resume, that’s what it’s for anyways, you don’t need to carry your honorific around with you.

This is my response to that:

I earned my doctorate as much as any MD out there. You seem to be saying that my degree is somehow less than a physician’s, a statement which has no logical foundation and implicitly diminishes my accomplishments. By extension, it sounds dismissive of an entire population of people who have earned the honorific.

The word doctor is not a exclusively applied to a medical doctor. It is an appropriate designation that recognizes and respects a person’s standing in his or her professional context. Within my professional field, my students and colleagues properly call me “doctor”. To do otherwise and call me “mister” would be an obvious omission and signify a lack of respect. Outside of my professional context, I wouldn’t feel offended the honorific is omitted, especially because most people who don’t know me wouldn’t be in a position to know about my title, and aren’t relating to me in my professional capacity anyway.

But I have every right to be called “doctor” in any context. It is insulting to say that I should be allowed to be called that.

I’m telling you guys about this, I think, as much to vent my frustration over this because it’s stupid, and I need to flush it. I shouldn’t let some callous douche get my dander up.

Ironically, I do roll my eyes at colleagues who insist that the people around them call them by their honorifics (outside of professional context). I usually feel they need to get over themselves.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Chariotoflove 01/30/2019 at 17:15

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soooooooo.....

DipodomysDeserti > Chariotoflove 01/30/2019 at 17:16

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I could only imagine that this person is either a child, or a moron. Best to disengage.

But yeah, only calling MDs “doctor” is a very ignorant take. As if medical school is the pinnacle of academic achievement.

TheRevanchist > Chariotoflove 01/30/2019 at 17:17

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Which post?  Let me rip this jerk along with you.

Honeybunchesofgoats > Chariotoflove 01/30/2019 at 17:21

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Translation: “I don’t know what’s involved in being granted a PhD and I don’t  know how titles work.”

HammerheadFistpunch > Chariotoflove 01/30/2019 at 17:24

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As the proud owner of an associate’s degree (among others) I DEMAND to be prefaced with ass.!

But yes, if you’ve earned your doc your a doc.  Same with DDS.  YES its a real doctorate.  

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > HammerheadFistpunch 01/30/2019 at 17:34

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“Ass. Fistpunch”  

HammerheadFistpunch > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 01/30/2019 at 17:38

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at your service.

random001 > Chariotoflove 01/30/2019 at 17:39

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You should mention that an MD is not a PhD level education , but a masters level education, so if anything Dr should be reserved for actual PhDs.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Chariotoflove 01/30/2019 at 17:40

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I understand exactly where you are coming from. I got irked when I was judging my son’s robotics competition. We had students from LSU volunteer to assist. As we were making introductions, t he teacher who sponsors the club introduced herself as “Mrs. Robotlady” (name changed to protect the guilty) after I had already introduced myself as Buck (yeah, that’s what people really call me). I couldn’t help myself when I said, “If we’re going to be like that, then you should call me Dr. Buck.” (first name substituted for last name to protect my innocence - by the way, this anonymity thing can be hard). Mrs. Robotlady immediately corrected herself and suggested everyone address her by her first name.

Everyone should realize that there are plenty of accomplished people around us every day. They ( usually) deserve our respect and the best course of action is to give them that respect until they demonstrate it isn’t deserved.

Part of earning that respect is not demanding it from others. I have a doctorate, but most of the people I meet are surprised when they find out. It usually happens when they get an e-mail from me since it’s part of my signature block.

I find it’s much easier to work with people solving problems when the honorifics aren’t  in the way. The only place where this doesn’t hold true is in the academic environment. Over there, I found that it was necessary for students to use it because it establishes boundaries, and for me to use it when I met new people so they understood that I was their peer. Overall, it sucked.

ttyymmnn > Chariotoflove 01/30/2019 at 17:47

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I have a Doctor of Musical Arts degree, or DMA. Many years of college, dissertation, defense, comps, recitals, etc. I friggin’ earned that thing. Ergo, I qualify to be called Dr. Ttyymmnn. But since I’m not in academia, I don’t use it, and frankly, I feel funny when people call me Dr. Ttyymmnn outside of a teaching environment . Invariably, I have to say, “Not that kind of doctor,” or “A teaching doctor, not a medical doctor.” But when I was teaching university, I felt that being called Dr. Ttyymmnn by the students was entirely appropriate.

Good replies to the troll, though. 

WilliamsSW > Chariotoflove 01/30/2019 at 17:50

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I’ve always subscribed to the belief that you get to choose what you’re called, and I try like hell to follow that (and pronounce it correctly, which can be a challenge).

Although I freely admit that I’m not a fan of people who want to be addressed as “Doctor” in a * personal* setting, and will correct you if you do not do so.

WilliamsSW > random001 01/30/2019 at 17:52

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By the time an MD finishes residency, fellowships, etc., they’ve put in as much education time as a PhD, I think.

Either one takes an enormous chunk of one’s life.

random001 > WilliamsSW 01/30/2019 at 17:54

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Its true, but without research and a dissertation defense, no Doctorate can be granted.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Chariotoflove 01/30/2019 at 18:00

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An MD is harder, more stressful, and takes longer to earn, than a PhD in any other discipline. Hate me if you like for saying so, but it is so. Still, so what?

You can have a boat that is run by an enlisted sailor, not even a chief, and that sailor is the captain of the boat. Then crew will do well to use the honorific.

In my classroom today, I asked one of my students to put Mister in front of my name, instead of addressing me simply by my last name. (I never would have done that when I was in high school.) She couldn’t understand why. I just said, “Would you please address me that way?”

WilliamsSW > random001 01/30/2019 at 18:02

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It is a Doctorate (Professional Doctorate) - but yeah, it works differently from a PhD.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > DipodomysDeserti 01/30/2019 at 18:04

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There’s another layer: title versus honorific.

If an enlisted sailor is in charge of a boat, then they are the captain of that boat, even if their earned military rank is chief petty officer. Or even petty officer. So when you call an MD “Doctor,” you may be using their title, rather than their honorific. Just like when you talk to the cop and say, “Yes, Officer.” The cop’s rank is immaterial at that point because they are an officer.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/30/2019 at 18:08

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There’s also a thick layer of common courtesy: how would an individual prefer to be addressed? But tact is a lie, so forget it.

Real Bicycle Buck. All along, I’ve been thinking it’s Real Bicycle Buick. I should learn to read.

And the anonymity thing? I met an Oppo this weekend and now know their actual name and we talk all the time on Oppo, and I just wanna call him by his given name.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/30/2019 at 18:14

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How an individual prefers to be addressed in a variety of settings says a lot about that individual.

No worries, sometimes I type “ Buick” when my fingers get ahead of my brain.

I met Tyyyymmmm at Comicon in New Orleans and I just want to call him by his given name. :)

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/30/2019 at 18:15

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I call him by his given name whenever I visit his home to see my nephews, which hasn’t happened in too long a time...

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Chariotoflove 01/30/2019 at 18:27

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Didn’t the medical field kind of steal the term doctor from well-studied professionals in the humanities anyways? Weird we’ve come full circle.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/30/2019 at 18:28

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“An MD is harder, more stressful, and takes longer to earn, than a PhD in any other discipline. Hate me if you like for saying so, but it is so.”  

I have a lot of experience in this and I can tell you that you are mistaken. My experience? I worked for several years running a research lab in a college of medicine. Several of the professors held both a Ph.D. and an M.D. All of them said both degrees were equally difficult, but in different ways. One is about identifying problems within a known framework, the other is about developing the framework. That means they require different skill sets, both of which require a lot of time and effort to grow .

You should note that most of an M.D.’s education comes from professors who hold a Ph.D. The rotations are where they learn the physical skills and bedside manner.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/30/2019 at 18:29

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This sounds like an opportunity for an Austin Oppo meet!

Chariotoflove > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/30/2019 at 18:33

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An MD is harder, more stressful, and takes longer to earn, than a PhD in any other discipline.

I am surrounded by PhDs and MDs. I am married to and was raised by MDs. I can tell you definitively that that is not even remotely true. PhDs in the biomedical sciences, such as mine, take an average of twice as long as an accredited MD program in the US. There are multiple sources to Google if you like. As for harder and more stressful, well the opposite is more often true in my field. It is open-ended and self-motivated. There is no guarantee of getting your degree at the end of four years  if you pass all your classes and rotations.

Chariotoflove > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 01/30/2019 at 18:38

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Yeah, I think so.

Chariotoflove > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/30/2019 at 18:39

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Well said.  Thank you.

Chariotoflove > HammerheadFistpunch 01/30/2019 at 18:42

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I will be proud to call you an Ass.

My sister in law the vet likes to joke that we are not RDs (real doctors).  The truth is, veterinarians are trained in many more species than physicians, and it’s way harder to get into vet school than med school.  Still, they are thought of as lesser.

Chariotoflove > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/30/2019 at 18:46

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The only place where this doesn’t hold true is in the academic environment. Over there, I found that it was necessary for students to use it because it establishes boundaries

Exactly! Also, outside of work I don’t call myself doctor anything. One time, I had occasion to email Michael Ballaban. I signed it with my first name and handle , because that’s what my identity is on Kinja. He read my signature and replied by calling me doctor. I was surprised and appreciative. It struck me as quite thoughtful.

Chariotoflove > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/30/2019 at 18:47

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It’s not far off anyway. :)  Plus, many of us, him included, don’t really keep their names secret.

Chariotoflove > random001 01/30/2019 at 18:49

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I like the way you think, although the MDs in my life would probably disagree. ;)

Interestingly, medical practitioners in other countries such as China and India have something more akin to bachelors level degrees than doctorates, al though they often  fill similar roles to MDs.

Chariotoflove > random001 01/30/2019 at 18:49

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Yup.

Chariotoflove > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 01/30/2019 at 18:50

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I can always count on you for a smile and stress relief.

Chariotoflove > Honeybunchesofgoats 01/30/2019 at 18:51

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Turns out the guy is a lawyer.  Maybe he’s sore because JDs don’t get to be called doctor (which, why they don’t I don’t really understand).

Honeybunchesofgoats > Chariotoflove 01/30/2019 at 18:54

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I’m sure a lot goes into being a lawyer, but I’d still take the LSAT over the GRE any day. 

Chariotoflove > ttyymmnn 01/30/2019 at 18:55

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Thanks. And when with students, they should absolutely call you Dr. Ttyymmnn. To do otherwise would be disrespectful in a student-teacher relationship. It would be the same as a grade school student calling his teacher by his first name.

On a related note, our administration recently admonished us on the faculty to call each other “doctor” when students are around, to promote professionalism. I’m a pretty casual guy, so I kind of rolled my eyes at that, but this is a professional school in the South. So, I know what they’re trying to do.

Chariotoflove > WilliamsSW 01/30/2019 at 18:58

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I think people who correct you with “doctor” when you address them need to get over themselves.

I work with a lot of Chinese folks. I try very hard to get those pronunciations right, but sometimes it’s difficult .

Chariotoflove > TheRevanchist 01/30/2019 at 18:59

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My friend.

https://thetakeout.com/south-dakota-school-district-closings-talking-hot-dog-1832201311

Chariotoflove > Honeybunchesofgoats 01/30/2019 at 19:00

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Amen.  I’d also like their income over mine, but I’ve made my bed.

WilliamsSW > Chariotoflove 01/30/2019 at 19:05

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I think people who correct you with “doctor” when you address them need to get over themselves.

Exactly - they are free to do that, but I’m also free to judge the hell out of them for doing so.

That said, 100% of the men my in-laws are friends with are (Chinese medical ) doctors who prefer to be called ‘Dr.’ I don’t even know their first names, TBH. I just suck it up and deal with it- it’s more of a Chinese cultural difference than the arrogance you would expect.

The last stock SC 5speed > Chariotoflove 01/31/2019 at 00:21

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Md.s, D.Os, PhD physicists, toxicologists etc. make it a point to  call each other by first names unless they are introducing each other at a drug company dinner /speach thing or something. So , yeah that is silly.  

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Chariotoflove 01/31/2019 at 07:58

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I am happy to stand corrected, and having no real first hand experience, likely don’t know what I’m talking about anyway. In either case, MD or PhD, you’d certainly better have a passion for what you are studying, or you’re going to be one unhappy camper. But when people are lying there sick and dying, and it’s on you to figure out why, on the spot, that’s gotta be pretty stressful. Like combat stressful. Not like dealing with a bunch of back stabbing, self serving academic wonks maneuvering for research money. Not saying you’re one of those, but I’ve known too many people in industry, PhDs in biowhatever, who lament how back stabbing, self serving people are always maneuvering to take credit for their work. Sounds awful.

Anyhow, color me a troll, because I’m too lazy — and interested in too many things — to ever consider the long corridor of an advanced degree in anything.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/31/2019 at 08:02

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https://oppositelock.kinja.com/1832226042

:o)

And

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/1832212553

.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/31/2019 at 08:05

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It does to me, too, though now that I have besmirched your professional standing in the other comments, I wouldn’t blame you for not wanting to. I jest, mostly, because I’d love to hook up with you and have a coffee sometime with Ttyymmnn. Put it on the Bucket List?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Chariotoflove 01/31/2019 at 08:06

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When my brother earned his DMA, I mailed him a gift to Dr. Ttyymmn and that may be the only time anybody ever called him that.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/31/2019 at 09:33

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Remaining friends while engaging in lively debate is an important life skill, one which we practice here on Oppo while the the rest of the internet subscribes to a scorched-earth approach.

Put it on your bucket list. I’ll be working out of Houston for the next couple of years, so when you finally figure out your next trip to Texas I’ll do my best to get over to Austin too. As for “hooking up,” I hope you aren’t using that in the way that kids do today. If so, I’ll just remind you that I’m happily married.

:)

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/31/2019 at 11:34

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Netflix and Chill, Bro.